The United States and the Prophetic Vision: A Call to Deep Biblical Study and Understanding
Key Takeaways
This article delves into the controversial interpretation of the United States as the “robbers of thy people” in Daniel 11:14, arguing that such a view diverges from traditional prophetic interpretations. It emphasizes the importance of individual spiritual testing and purification, as described in Malachi 3, and the role of recent revelations in preparing the 144,000 faithful. Drawing from the teachings of Ellen White and the historical experiences of the Millerites, the article underscores the necessity of diligent, personal Bible study to discern truth from error. It calls for a return to the foundational truths of Adventism and a rejection of modern misinterpretations that threaten to undermine these foundations.
- Controversial Interpretation: The view that the United States represents the “robbers of thy people” in Daniel 11:14 is challenged.
- Spiritual Testing: The purification process described in Malachi 3 is underway, testing and refining the faithful.
- Recent Revelations: A message unsealed in July 2023 plays a crucial role in purging and preparing the 144,000.
- Historical Context: The article draws parallels between current controversies and those faced by the Millerites.
- Foundational Truths: Emphasis on the importance of adhering to the foundational truths of Adventism as represented in the 1843 pioneer chart.
- Individual Responsibility: Encourages individual believers to engage in thorough, purposeful Bible study to understand prophetic truths.
- Warnings Against Misinterpretation: Critiques modern misinterpretations and calls for public retractions of false claims.
- Call to Action: Urges believers to hold fast to the truths established in the early Adventist movement and to resist new, unfounded interpretations.
In the previous two articles addressing the private interpretation that claims that the United States has been typified by the “robbers of thy people” who “establish the vision” in Daniel chapter eleven verse fourteen we cited a passage from the pen of Ellen White which stated, “The members of the church will individually be tested and proved.” That proving, testing, sifting process which is represented as the Messenger of the Covenant in Malachi chapter three cleansing the silver and gold is now under way. In Malachi chapter three it identifies a purging.
And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness. Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the Lord, as in the days of old, and as in former years. Malachi 3:3, 4.
Those who hold to the idea that the United States is the symbol which establishes the vision have been unable or unwilling to understand that the message that was unsealed in July of 2023 is what purges the candidates to be among the one hundred and forty-four thousand. In the synagogue at Capernaum the final purging of the one hundred of the forty-four thousand was typified.
“Jesus told them plainly, ‘There are some of you that believe not;’ adding, ‘Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto Me, except it were given unto him of My Father.’ He wished them to understand that if they were not drawn to Him it was because their hearts were not open to the Holy Spirit. ‘The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.’ 1 Corinthians 2:14. It is by faith that the soul beholds the glory of Jesus. This glory is hidden, until, through the Holy Spirit, faith is kindled in the soul.
“By the public rebuke of their unbelief these disciples were still further alienated from Jesus. They were greatly displeased, and wishing to wound the Saviour and gratify the malice of the Pharisees, they turned their backs upon Him, and left Him with disdain. They had made their choice,—had taken the form without the spirit, the husk without the kernel. Their decision was never afterward reversed; for they walked no more with Jesus.
“‘Whose fan is in His hand, and He will throughly purge His floor, and gather His wheat into the garner.’ Matthew 3:12. This was one of the times of purging. By the words of truth, the chaff was being separated from the wheat. Because they were too vain and self-righteous to receive reproof, too world-loving to accept a life of humility, many turned away from Jesus. Many are still doing the same thing. Souls are tested today as were those disciples in the synagogue at Capernaum. When truth is brought home to the heart, they see that their lives are not in accordance with the will of God. They see the need of an entire change in themselves; but they are not willing to take up the self-denying work. Therefore they are angry when their sins are discovered. They go away offended, even as the disciples left Jesus, murmuring, ‘This is an hard saying; who can hear it?’” The Desire of Ages, 392.
By “words of truth” the gold and silver of Malachi’s illustration of the final temple cleansing of the one hundred and forty-four thousand was represented.
Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts. But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap. Malachi 3:1, 2.
All the prophets, including Malachi are identifying the last days. In the first of these articles we cited, The 1888 Materials, page 403, where we are informed, “He who rests satisfied with his own present imperfect knowledge of the Scriptures, thinking this sufficient for his salvation, is resting in a fatal deception. There are many who are not thoroughly furnished with Scriptural arguments, that they may be able to discern error, and condemn all the tradition and superstition that has been palmed off as truth.” Those identified in the same passage “are not close Bible students,” who have “not studied to a purpose” the “passages of Scripture” where there exists “differences of opinion.” Those being addressed “do not read the Bible [in order] to appropriate the marrow and fatness to their own souls. They do not feel that it is the voice of God speaking to them. But, if we would understand the way of salvation, if we would see the beams of the Sun of righteousness,” they “must study the Scriptures for a purpose.”
The first article identified that one of the pieces of their misguided prophetic model is the passage from The Great Controversy, which records, “Romanism in the Old World and apostate Protestantism in the New will pursue a similar course toward those who honor all the divine precepts.” The Great Controversy, 615. Their private interpretation claims this sentence is identifying “Romanism” as past history and “apostate Protestantism” as the modern world. After the grammatical evidence that the application they make on this sentence has been wrested from its correct meaning, they exhibited no public retraction of the false application. In fact they used the very passage to advertise their next zoom meeting. Yet we are informed that “We ought to impress upon all the necessity of inquiring diligently into divine truth, that they may know that they do know what is truth.” There was no effort to retract the false claim, which appears to be evidence that those promoting this false application are not “inquiring diligently” to “know what is truth.”
From the beginning of this controversy, we have approached it as if it was more than simply a disagreement between truth and error over who the robbers of thy people represent, and I still hold that position. The articles on the book of Daniel had reached a point by number two hundred where the significance of verses thirteen to fifteen of Daniel eleven had been soundly set forth. The verses represent the history from 1989 unto the soon-coming Sunday law that exists in verse forty of Daniel eleven.
We have been identifying that history as the hidden history of verse forty. We have also identified that when Sister Whites states “the book that was sealed is not the Revelation, but that portion of the prophecy of Daniel relating to the last days,” that the hidden history of Daniel chapter eleven verse forty is “that portion of the prophecy of Daniel.” Verses thirteen through fifteen represent the prophetic truth which is unsealed in the last days. Those three verses are therefore also represented as both the “Revelation of Jesus Christ” and the “Seven Thunders” in the book of Revelation that is unsealed just prior to the close of probation. When Sister White refers to that “portion of the book of Daniel,” the passage where the statement is located states:
“Let none think, because they cannot explain the meaning of every symbol in the Revelation, that it is useless for them to search this book in an effort to know the meaning of the truth it contains. The One who revealed these mysteries to John will give to the diligent searcher for truth a foretaste of heavenly things. Those whose hearts are open to the reception of truth will be enabled to understand its teachings, and will be granted the blessing promised to those who ‘hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein.’
“In the Revelation all the books of the Bible meet and end. Here is the complement of the book of Daniel. One is a prophecy; the other a revelation. The book that was sealed is not the Revelation, but that portion of the prophecy of Daniel relating to the last days. The angel commanded, ‘But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end.’ Daniel 12:4.” Acts of the Apostles, 584, 585.
The word “complement” means to bring to perfection. The portion of the book of Daniel that relates to the last days, which is unsealed at the time of the end, is made perfect when combined, “line upon line” with the “Revelation of Jesus Christ,” and “the Seven Thunders.” Those three representations are the message which is unsealed, and therefore represents the “words of truth” that are employed to “purge” the one hundred and forty four thousand in the final temple cleansing of Malachi, are represented in verses thirteen to fifteen of Daniel eleven. The verse in the middle is the verse where the current controversy is represented, and as such represents the identical controversy that confronted the Millerites in their prophetic history.
To claim the “robbers of thy people” in verse fourteen is the United States is a perfect parallel to the Protestants of Millerite history claiming that the robbers represented Antiochus Epiphanes. The controversy will purge the dross from the gold and silver, but the more important issue is that the controversy has been allowed to lead those represented by the Levites of Malachi chapter three to study more deeply than ever before God’s prophetic Word. The “dirt brush Man” of William Miller’s dream is now sweeping the counterfeit coins and jewels out of the room, in advance of His work in reassembling the genuine jewels into a perfect order which shines ten times brighter than the sun.
The controversy was allowed to take place to accomplish that very work, for we have been informed that, “God will arouse His people; if other means fail, heresies will come in among them, which will sift them, separating the chaff from the wheat. The Lord calls upon all who believe His word to awake out of sleep. Precious light has come, appropriate for this time. It is Bible truth, showing the perils that are right upon us. This light should lead us to a diligent study of the Scriptures and a most critical examination of the positions which we hold. God would have all the bearings and positions of truth thoroughly and perseveringly searched, with prayer and fasting. Believers are not to rest in suppositions and ill-defined ideas of what constitutes truth.”
The “heresies” He allows and employs to arouse His sleeping saints are “old controversies.”
“In history and prophecy the Word of God portrays the long continued conflict between truth and error. That conflict is yet in progress. Those things which have been, will be repeated. Old controversies will be revived, and new theories will be continually arising. But God’s people, who in their belief and fulfillment of prophecy have acted a part in the proclamation of the first, second, and third angels’ messages, know where they stand. They have an experience that is more precious than fine gold. They are to stand firm as a rock, holding the beginning of their confidence steadfast unto the end.” Selected Message, book 2, 109.
The controversy over the “robbers of thy people” is an old controversy from the Millerite history, which is the “beginning of their confidence” that they are told to hold “steadfast to the end.” The “beginning of” the one hundred and forty-four thousand’s “confidence” is the foundational truths which are represented upon the 1843 and 1850 pioneer charts.
“The enemy is seeking to divert the minds of our brethren and sisters from the work of preparing a people to stand in these last days. His sophistries are designed to lead minds away from the perils and duties of the hour. They estimate as nothing the light that Christ came from heaven to give John for his people. They teach that the scenes just before us are not of sufficient importance to receive special attention. They make of no effect the truth of heavenly origin, and rob the people of God of their past experience, giving them instead a false science.
“‘Thus saith the Lord, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein.’
“Let none seek to tear away the foundations of our faith,—the foundations that were laid at the beginning of our work, by prayerful study of the Word and by revelation. Upon these foundations we have been building for the last fifty years. Men may suppose that they have found a new way, and that they can lay a stronger foundation than that which has been laid. But this is a great deception. Other foundation can no man lay than that which has been laid.
“In the past many have undertaken the building of a new faith, the establishment of new principles. But how long did their building stand?—It soon fell; for it was not founded upon the Rock.
“Did not the first disciples have to meet the sayings of men? Did they not have to listen to false theories, and then, having done all, to stand firm, saying, ‘Other foundation can no man lay than that is laid’?
“So we are to hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end. Words of power have been sent by God and by Christ to this people, bringing them out from the world, point by point, into the clear light of present truth. With lips touched with holy fire, God’s servants have proclaimed the message. The divine utterance has set its seal to the genuineness of the truth proclaimed.” Review and Herald, March 3, 1904.
Jeremiah’s “old paths,” are the “foundations that were laid at the beginning of our work.” Those truths were founded “upon the Rock,” and in the Millerite history those foundational truths were the “present truth” message that was proclaimed in 1842, 1843 and 1844.
“May God help you to receive the words that I have spoken. Let those who stand as God’s watchmen on the walls of Zion be men who can see the dangers before the people,—men who can distinguish between truth and error, righteousness and unrighteousness.
“The warning has come: Nothing is to be allowed to come in that will disturb the foundation of the faith upon which we have been building ever since the message came in 1842, 1843, and 1844. I was in this message, and ever since I have been standing before the world, true to the light that God has given us. We do not propose to take our feet off the platform on which they were placed as day by day we sought the Lord with earnest prayer, seeking for light. Do you think that I could give up the light that God has given me? It is to be as the Rock of Ages. It has been guiding me ever since it was given. Brethren and sisters, God lives and reigns and works today. His hand is on the wheel, and in his providence he is turning the wheel in accordance with his own will. Let not men fasten themselves to documents, saying what they will do, and what they will not do. Let them fasten themselves to the Lord God of heaven. Then the light of heaven will shine into the soul-temple, and we shall see the salvation of God.” Review and Herald, April 14, 1903.
The message that was proclaimed “in 1842, 1843, and 1844” is the message represented upon the 1843 pioneer chart. In May of 1842, three hundred 1843 charts were printed. Ellen White and the pioneers all gave testimony that the chart was a fulfillment of Habakkuk chapter two’s command to write the vision and make it plain upon tables. In that very history there were three hundred Millerite preachers, and SDA historians testify to the fact that they all employed the 1843 chart.
What would possess a person to claim that the pioneer identification of Rome as the robbers of thy people, as represented upon the chart, is erroneous? What would possess someone to receive that claim? Yet, what possesses those of us that claim to accept the pioneer understanding that Rome is symbolized with the expression, “robbers of the people,” and yet in reality not be able to defend that understanding for themselves?
In the first article we cited the following passage:
“Whatever may be man’s intellectual advancement, let him not for a moment think that there is no need of thorough and continuous searching of the Scriptures for greater light. As a people we are called individually to be students of prophecy. We must watch with earnestness that we may discern any ray of light which God shall present to us.” I claim the “light which God” is now presenting “to us” is that we have not fully awakened to our responsibility to personally understand the first fifteen verses of Daniel eleven, and that we have not understood that verses thirteen to fifteen of that same chapter represent the truths that accomplish the final purging and sealing of the one hundred and forty-four thousand. If there were no heresies introduced in this very history it would provide evidence that we are wide awake. But this controversy proves otherwise.
“The fact that there is no controversy or agitation among God’s people should not be regarded as conclusive evidence that they are holding fast to sound doctrine. There is reason to fear that they may not be clearly discriminating between truth and error. When no new questions are started by investigation of the Scriptures, when no difference of opinion arises which will set men to searching the Bible for themselves to make sure that they have the truth, there will be many now, as in ancient times, who will hold to tradition and worship they know not what. . ..
“God will arouse His people; if other means fail, heresies will come in among them, which will sift them, separating the chaff from the wheat. The Lord calls upon all who believe His word to awake out of sleep. Precious light has come, appropriate for this time. It is Bible truth, showing the perils that are right upon us. This light should lead us to a diligent study of the Scriptures and a most critical examination of the positions which we hold. God would have all the bearings and positions of truth thoroughly and perseveringly searched, with prayer and fasting. Believers are not to rest in suppositions and ill-defined ideas of what constitutes truth. Their faith must be firmly founded upon the word of God so that when the testing time shall come and they are brought before councils to answer for their faith they may be able to give a reason for the hope that is in them, with meekness and fear.
“Agitate, agitate, agitate. The subjects which we present to the world must be to us a living reality. It is important that in defending the doctrines which we consider fundamental articles of faith we should never allow ourselves to employ arguments that are not wholly sound.” Testimonies, volume 5, 708.
As we move forward in this consideration of the robbers of God’s people we will demonstrate that the argument upon verse fourteen of Daniel twelve between the Protestants and the Millerites is identical to the argument between the new and private interpretation that the United States, and not Rome, establishes the vision. The position that The Great Controversy uses the expression, “old world” to identify past history is a “supposition and ill-defined idea” and it is an illustration of an “argument that is not wholly sound.”
Those who have used the passage to uphold their supposition that the Millerites were incorrect in identifying Rome as the robbers of thy people, should fulfill their Christian obligation and publicly retract their claim, for it is unsustainable grammatically and historically. For those sitting on the side-lines of this controversy, you are responsible to rightly divide the word of truth, for you have been called to be an individual who is a student of prophecy, not a follower of a man’s idea.
Men wrest the Scriptures to their own destruction.
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever. Amen. 2 Peter 3:15–18.
Peter states that it is the Unlearned and unstable” who “wrest” the Scriptures “unto their own destruction.” In agreement with that fact is Sister White’s repeated warnings to us to study for ourselves. If we are not fulfilling our responsibility to be students of prophecy, we are determining our own destruction.
It is the robbers of thy people who establish the vision, and Solomon identifies that where there is no vision the people perish.
Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he. Proverbs 29:18.
One of the definitions of “perish” is to be made naked. Where there is an incorrect understanding of the vision, it is based upon the fact that the symbol that establishes the vision is not understood, or incorrectly understood. To be among those who perish in Solomon’s warning is to secure the nakedness represented by the Laodiceans who are spewed out of the mouth of the Lord at the soon coming Sunday law. Why would we accept an idea that misrepresents the clear meaning of Sister White comments upon the old and new world, and that rejects the Millerite identification that it is Rome who establishes the vision, which was directly represented upon the 1843 chart, which represents the foundational truths of Adventism, and which is Christ, the Rock of Ages that is represented by all sacred illustration of the foundations?
“But every building erected on other foundation than God’s word will fall. He who, like the Jews in Christ’s day, builds on the foundation of human ideas and opinions, of forms and ceremonies of man’s invention, or on any works that he can do independently of the grace of Christ, is erecting his structure of character upon the shifting sand. The fierce tempests of temptation will sweep away the sandy foundation and leave his house a wreck on the shores of time.
“‘“Therefore thus saith the Lord God, … Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.’ Isaiah 28:16, 17.
“But today mercy pleads with the sinner. ‘As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die?’ Ezekiel 33:11. The voice that speaks to the impenitent today is the voice of Him who in heart anguish exclaimed as He beheld the city of His love: ‘O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her own brood under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.’ Luke 13:34, 35 , R.V. In Jerusalem, Jesus beheld a symbol of the world that had rejected and despised His grace. He was weeping, O stubborn heart, for you! Even when Jesus’ tears were shed upon the mount, Jerusalem might yet have repented, and escaped her doom. For a little space the Gift of heaven still waited her acceptance. So, O heart, to you Christ is still speaking in accents of love: ‘Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear My voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with Me.’ ‘Now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.’ Revelation 3:20; 2 Corinthians 6:2.
“You who are resting your hope on self are building on the sand. But it is not yet too late to escape the impending ruin. Before the tempest breaks, flee to the sure foundation. ‘Thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious cornerstone, of sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.’ ‘Look unto Me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.’ ‘Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of My righteousness.’ ‘Ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.’ Isaiah 28:16, R.V.; 45:22; 41:10; 45:17.” Thoughts from the Mount of Blessing, 150–152.
We will continue this study in the next article.
Sister B:
Your logic is flawed and a rejection of established truth.
“But what is the ‘image to the beast’? and how is it to be formed? The image is made by the two-horned beast, and is an image to the beast. It is also called an image of the beast. Then to learn what the image is like and how it is to be formed we must study the characteristics of the beast itself—the papacy.
“When the early church became corrupted by departing from the simplicity of the gospel and accepting heathen rites and customs, she lost the Spirit and power of God; and in order to control the consciences of the people, she sought the support of the secular power. The result was the papacy, a church that controlled the power of the state and employed it to further her own ends, especially for the punishment of ‘heresy.’ In order for the United States to form an image of the beast, the religious power must so control the civil government that the authority of the state will also be employed by the church to accomplish her own ends.” The Great Controversy, 443.
The United States forms an image of and to the beast. C. often calls the United States the image of the beast, so that expression should be understood correctly. The word “establish” in verse fourteen means to stand. The prophetic vision of chapter eleven stands by whoever “the robbers of thy people are.”
I realize that you have thus far been unwilling to address the points that reveal your wrong position in any fashion other than simply avoiding an intelligent response to prove the criticisms of your position wrong. The best that has been provided by any holding this flawed view is equivalent to sweeping something under a rug. The only response provided in regard to any critique of the flawed view you continue to promote is to repeat your ideas.
When the United States is being represented in the context of the image of or to the beast, it is absolutely impossible to understand what is meant by the term “image of or to the beast,” without understanding the beast itself, the papal power. That is why in the passage above, Sister White states, “to learn what the image is like and how it is to be formed we must study the characteristics of the beast itself—the papacy.”
If a person is to understand the role of the United States correctly, they have done so by first understanding the papal power. Without the beast there is no image of the beast.
You appear to be so fixated on your own opinion that you miss that simple logic.
The United States as the image of the beast has a role in the prophetic vision, but that role can only be recognized and defined when pagan and papal Rome is first understood, for in order to establish the vision of Daniel eleven, you must understand pagan and papal power, for it is Rome that establishes the vision.
C. speaks much about type and antitype, but his application demonstrates he, and I assume you as well, do not truly understand and apply type/antitype correctly.
The first reference to the dragon, the beast and false prophet in the last days is in the story of Elijah at Mount Carmel. His antagonists were threefold. Ahab was the dragon, Jezebel the beast and the prophets of Baal in connection with the priests of the grove were the false prophet. When fire came down and confirmed Elijah’s God as the true God, Elijah the slew the false prophets.
At the Sunday law the United States is overthrown, and as its sixth kingdom ends, and it then becomes the leading king of the ten kings of the United Nations. It joins with the dragon power. At both Carmel and the Sunday law the United States ends, or as Sister White says it suffers “national ruin.” It is Jezebel, who is the beast, and who is the papal power that is ruling over Ahab and the other kings. Jezebel is the symbol of the papal power during the Dark Ages and is represented in chapter two of Revelation as the church of Thyatira. Thyatira was preceded by Pergamos, representing pagan Rome. Pergamos at the end of the world is the United States, who as did pagan Rome, places the papal power back on the throne when its deadly wound is healed at the Sunday law.
The vision of Revelation is the same vision as Daniel, and Revelation’s vision is describing the healing of the papal power. As pagan Rome placed Thyatira, or Jezebel upon the throne in 538, so does the United States at the soon-coming Sunday law. The role of the United States is represented by Pergamos, and to identify the United States as Rome is to identify Pergamos as Thyatira.
Any way you approach your flawed application it is easily shown to be invalid. You cannot have an image of something, without the something. The something that the image is reflecting is what establishes the vision of the image.
You are willingly opposing a foundational understanding that is reflected upon the 1843 pioneer chart, that according to Ellen White was “directed by the hand of the Lord, and should not be altered.” You are willingly claiming that one of the foundational truths, should be altered by your personal discernment, and in doing so you are taking a position directly opposed to the Millerite understanding represented upon the chart, and directly rejecting Sister White’s endorsement of that very chart.
“The very last deception of Satan will be to make of none effect the testimony of the Spirit of God. ‘Where there is no vision, the people perish’ (Proverbs 29:18). Satan will work ingeniously, in different ways and through different agencies, to unsettle the confidence of God’s remnant people in the true testimony. He will bring in spurious visions to mislead, and will mingle the false with the true, and so disgust people that they will regard everything that bears the name of visions as a species of fanaticism; but honest souls, by contrasting false and true, will be enabled to distinguish between them.” Selected Messages, volume 2, 78.
“I have seen that the 1843 chart was directed by the hand of the Lord, and that it should not be altered; that the figures were as He wanted them; that His hand was over and hid a mistake in some of the figures, so that none could see it, until His hand was removed.” Early Writings, 74.
“The truths that we received in 1841, ‘42, ‘43, and ‘44 are now to be studied and proclaimed.” Manuscript Releases, volume 15, 371.
“The warning has come: Nothing is to be allowed to come in that will disturb the foundation of the faith upon which we have been building ever since the message came in 1842, 1843, and 1844. I was in this message, and ever since I have been standing before the world, true to the light that God has given us. We do not propose to take our feet off the platform on which they were placed as day by day we sought the Lord with earnest prayer, seeking for light. Do you think that I could give up the light that God has given me? It is to be as the Rock of Ages. It has been guiding me ever since it was given.” Review and Herald, April 14, 1903.
“In May, 1842, a General Conference was convened in Boston, Massachutes. At the opening of this meeting, Brethren Charles Fitch and Apollos Hale, of Haverhill, presented the pictorial prophecies of Daniel and John, which they had painted on cloth, with the prophetic numbers, showing their fulfillment. Brother Fitch in explaining from his chart before the Conference, said, while examining these prophecies, he had thought if he could get out something of the kind as here presented it would simplify the subject and make it easier for him to present to an audience. Here was more light in our pathway. These brethren had been doing what the Lord had shown Habakkuk in his vision 2,468 years before, saying, ‘Write the vision and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it. For the vision is yet for an appointed time.’ Habakkuk 2:2.
“After some discussion on the subject, it was voted unanimously to have three hundred similar to this one lithographed, which was soon accomplished. They were called ‘the ‘43 charts.’ This was a very important Conference.” The Autobiography of Joseph Bates, 263.
“It was the united testimony of Second Advent lecturers and papers, when standing on ‘the original faith,’ that the publication of the chart was a fulfillment of Habakkuk 2:2, 3. If the chart was a subject of prophecy (and those who deny it leave the original faith), then it follows that B.C. 457 was the year from which to date the 2300 days. It was necessary that 1843 should be the first published time in order that ‘the vision’ should ‘tarry,’ or that there should be a tarrying time, in which the virgin band was to slumber and sleep on the great subject of time, just before they were to be aroused by the Midnight Cry.” Second Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, Volume I, Number 2, James White.
“Now our history shows that there were hundreds teaching from the same chronological charts that William Miller was, all of one stamp. Then it was the oneness of the message all on one theme, the coming of the Lord Jesus at a certain time, 1844.” Joseph Bates, Early SDA Pamphlets, 17.
Sister B., it appears to me that you have not the same conviction of the sacred foundations, for you have no hesitation to take a position to contradict the foundational truths and the Spirit of Prophecy. I have heard you claim that C. and I were teaching the same thing, only saying it differently. That is nonsense. Papal Rome is not the United States. C. and his group have taught that the “old world” in the writings of Ellen White in connection with “apostate Protestantism of the new world,” represents ancient history and modern history. English grammar and the contextual understanding of Ellen White, both prove the error of that application and this flawed application has been refuted publicly, but no retraction has come forth from those presenting this false application that is being used to prop up the claims of the United States.
“As the Sabbath has become the special point of controversy throughout Christendom, and religious and secular authorities have combined to enforce the observance of the Sunday, the persistent refusal of a small minority to yield to the popular demand will make them objects of universal execration. It will be urged that the few who stand in opposition to an institution of the church and a law of the state ought not to be tolerated; that it is better for them to suffer than for whole nations to be thrown into confusion and lawlessness. The same argument many centuries ago was brought against Christ by the ‘rulers of the people.’ ‘It is expedient for us’” said the wily Caiaphas, ‘that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.’ John 11:50. This argument will appear conclusive; and a decree will finally be issued against those who hallow the Sabbath of the fourth commandment, denouncing them as deserving of the severest punishment and giving the people liberty, after a certain time, to put them to death. Romanism in the Old World and apostate Protestantism in the New will pursue a similar course toward those who honor all the divine precepts.” The Great Controversy, 615.
The sentence states, “Romanism in the Old World and apostate Protestantism in the New will pursue a similar course toward those who honor all the divine precepts.” Both the papal power and the United States “will pursue” persecution. There is no justification for claiming this means, Romanism in the past (the Old World) and apostate Protestantism in the future (the New) will pursue a similar course.” Both the papal power and the United States “will pursue” persecution in the last days. Common understanding, which is the understanding Ellen White’s writings uphold, is that the “old world’ is an expression meaning Europe, and the “new world” is the Americas. Both the beast (the papal power), and the image of the beast (the United States) will accomplish persecution in the last days. The type that first presents this fact is the story of Elijah, who Malachi identifies will return just before the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
Jezebel is the papal power, and her false prophets and false priests represent the United States. A daughter is a reflection or image of her mother, but the papal power is the mother of harlots in the prophetic testimony. The USA is a daughter. It is the mother who establishes the vision.
The casual way in which some on the Canadian zoom approach this truth is frightening. The very symbol that God’s Word, the Millerite movement and Sister White upholds as the symbol that establishes the vision, is open to your group’s casual and shallow approach to the subject. Its as if you really don’t understand that when someone accepts your flawed idea that their blood will be on your garments, but it will.
In regards to your statement:
“Rome sets herself up in the USA, as “Rome”, the spiritual embodiment of literal Rome. She has set herself up in other nations in history (the countries of Europe and England for example) but it is the USA that Rev 13 is about, because this is about us, God’s people in America just before the close of probation. “Rome” has been setting herself up in the USA since 1798, in our time most notably in 1989, which is both a point and the beginning of a period of time, a period of time during which the image of the beast (“Rome”) has been forming.”
What does “Rome sets herself up in the USA, as “Rome”, the spiritual embodiment of literal Rome,” mean?
Rome is the spiritual embodiment of literal Rome. What?
Does that mean papal Rome is the spiritual embodiment of pagan Rome? The little horn in Daniel eight oscillates between masculine and feminine, thus identifying civil pagan Rome (masculine) and church papal Rome (feminine). Is that what you are saying? Is the Rome that sets herself up in the USA, papal Rome? You call her, “herself,” so I assume you mean papal Rome. Are you suggesting that when Rome has in the past set itself up in Europe and England, it set up an image to the beast in Europe and England?
Revelation thirteen concludes with a warning against papal Rome and its mark, its number and its name. Revelation thirteen’s warning is about papal Rome, not the USA, or are you saying the mark, number and name is identifying the USA? If so, then who is the power in the passage that forces the entire world to accept the name, number and mark of the USA?
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. Revelation 13:17, 18.
You claim Revelation thirteen is about “God’s people in America, just before probation closes,” whereas the whole world in the chapter is being forbidden to buy or sell, except they have the name, mark and number of the beast, whose number is 666. You claim its about America, when John claims its about the whole world wondering after the beast whose deadly wound has been healed.
And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. Revelation 13:3.
Revelation thirteen is about the restoration of the papal power at the end of the world. It’s not about “Rome” setting “herself up in the USA, as ‘Rome’, the spiritual embodiment of literal Rome.” Rome is not set up in the United States, an image of Rome is set up. It is called the image of the beast, and the beast is papal Rome. The antichrist is the one Paul identifies as setting in the temple of God claiming to be God. That is papal Rome, who leader is Paul’s man of sin and the number of the man who represents papal Rome is 666. It’s not the USA. Your claims are confusing, as well as being incorrect. Wisdom demands that you count the number of the beast, not the number of the image of the beast, and the number is the number of a man, and that man is antichrist.
“Those who become confused in their understanding of the word, who fail to see the meaning of antichrist, will surely place themselves on the side of antichrist.” Kress Collection, 105.
An image of “something” is not the “something.” It’s the image of the beast, and without a beast there can be no image of the beast. The only way to identify and establish who and what the image of the beast is, is to first understand the beast itself. Image means: G1504 a likeness, that is, (literally) statue, profile, or (figuratively) representation, resemblance: – image.
You cannot have a likeness statue, profile, representation, or resemblance of something without the something that is being mirrored. This means without the beast you cannot have an image of the beast, and you cannot set up an image of the beast, if you have no beast. The only way to establish the role of the USA as the image of the beast is to apply the prophetic characteristics of the beast to define what makes up the image of said beast. Pagan and papal Rome establish the prophetic characteristics of modern Rome, for Rome establishes the vision, the image cannot establish the beast without the testimony of the beast.
You claim “Rome sets herself up in the USA.,” in contradiction to Sister Whites claim that “the image is made by the two-horned beast.” The USA is the two-horned beast, so are you right or is Sister White? Does Rome set herself up in the USA as she (you claim) has done in Europe and England, or does the USA set up an image to the beast. Sister White further states, “In order for the United States to form an image of the beast, the religious power must so control the civil government that the authority of the state will also be employed by the church to accomplish her own ends.” The Great Controversy, 443.
She didn’t say “in order for Rome to form an image to the beast,” it’s the USA that forms an image. Yet you claim Rome sets herself up in the USA. Its not so much that you teaching is jumbled and inconsistent, rejects the foundations and the Spirit of Prophecy, you appear to have no regard of letting you ideas go forth abroad an infecting others with the so-called new light, as it has been identified on the zoom discussions. The first rule of new light is that it NEVER contradicts old light. Never.
“When the power of God testifies as to what is truth, that truth is to stand forever as the truth. No after suppositions contrary to the light God has given are to be entertained. Men will arise with interpretations of Scripture which are to them truth, but which are not truth. The truth for this time God has given us as a foundation for our faith. He Himself has taught us what is truth. One will arise, and still another, with new light, which contradicts the light that God has given under the demonstration of His Holy Spirit. A few are still alive who passed through the experience gained in the establishment of this truth. God has graciously spared their lives to repeat, and repeat till the close of their lives, the experience through which they passed even as did John the apostle till the very close of his life. And the standard bearers who have fallen in death are to speak through the reprinting of their writings. I am instructed that thus their voices are to be heard. They are to bear their testimony as to what constitutes the truth for this time.
“We are not to receive the words of those who come with a message that contradicts the special points of our faith. They gather together a mass of Scripture, and pile it as proof around their asserted theories. This has been done over and over again during the past fifty years. And while the Scriptures are God’s word, and are to be respected, the application of them, if such application moves one pillar from the foundation that God has sustained these fifty years, is a great mistake. He who makes such an application knows not the wonderful demonstration of the Holy Spirit that gave power and force to the past messages that have come to the people of God.
“Elder G’s proofs are not reliable. If received, they would destroy the faith of God’s people in the truth that has made us what we are.
“We must be decided on this subject; for the points that he is trying to prove by Scripture, are not sound. They do not prove that the past experience of God’s people was a fallacy. We had the truth; we were directed by the angels of God. It was under the guidance of the Holy Spirit that the presentation of the sanctuary question was given. It is eloquence for everyone to keep silent in regard to the features of our faith in which they acted no part. God never contradicts Himself. Scripture proofs are misapplied if forced to testify to that which is not true. Another and still another will arise and bring in supposedly great light, and make their assertions. But we stand by the old landmarks. [1 John 1:1-10 quoted.]
“I am instructed to say that these words we may use as appropriate for this time, for the time has come when sin must be called by its right name. We are hindered in our work by men who are not converted, who seek their own glory. They wish to be thought originators of new theories, which they present claiming that they are truth. But if these theories are received, they will lead to a denial of the truth that for the past fifty years God has been giving to His people, substantiating it by the demonstration of the Holy Spirit.” Selected Messages, book 1, 161, 162.
“God is not giving us a new message. We are to proclaim the message that in 1843 and 1844 brought us out of the other churches.” Review and Herald, January 19, 1905.
“All the messages given from 1840–1844 are to be made forcible now, for there are many people who have lost their bearings. The messages are to go to all the churches.” Manuscript Releases, volume 21, 437.
You, and those who are standing with you in this foolish teaching need not only to repent, but you need to do so publicly, for you have continued to publicly promote these ideas even after there was provided biblical evidence of the inconsistencies of your private interpretation. It is your Christian responsibility. This issue is not simply a spiritual discussion to fill out the Sabbath hours with other brethren, where anyone and everyone has the right to promote their own ideas, for the sake of interacting about spiritual stuff. This is a life or death issue.
Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 2 Timothy 3:7.
“I am instructed to say that these words we may use as appropriate for this time, for the time has come when sin must be called by its right name. We are hindered in our work by men who are not converted, who seek their own glory. They wish to be thought originators of new theories, which they present claiming that they are truth. But if these theories are received, they will lead to a denial of the truth that for the past fifty years God has been giving to His people, substantiating it by the demonstration of the Holy Spirit.”
Your brother Jeff
I don’t know if this has already been said (?) but I noticed a profound parallel (which, at least, I thought was interesting and profound). That is, that the middle letter of the word “Truth” is the 13th letter of the Hebrew alphabet which is a symbol of rebellion (13 representing rebellion). And that this middle 13th letter parallels with the middle verse (v.14) out of verses 13-15 of Daniel 11, which has been found to contain the Present Truth for this time of the end. Interestingly enough is that it is this very verse (14) that has caused the most recent controversy in this movement to occur regarding the U.S.A being the “robbers of thy people.” Thus, the LORD Jesus (the Alpha and Omega) always reveals there is a middle rebellion taking place between the beginning and end points of a point in history.